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Subject: Ok, what the f is this?! rss

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Dave Graffam
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greyareabeyond wrote:
But the least "boardgamey" thing FFG can imagine could still be pretty "boardgamey".

They produce some traditional RPGs: Anima, Grimm, Rogue Trader, Midnight (formerly). I'm not sure how many of those were designed in-house, though.

greyareabeyond wrote:
Again, he didn't say it was a boardgame.

You're right. I've added a note to my post to make it clear that comment wasn't directed solely at Jeremy. I do think he's under the wrong impression about the game, and I'm disappointed that he hasn't provided details yet.

What really trips me out is that two published writers for earlier editions of WFRP who saw the game materials (and demo?) at GenCon reported very much the same thing -- that it's not an RPG as we know it, that it's something else. But neither of them has explained why. So I'm genuinely interested in Jeremy's impression of the game, but also facts of what he saw and heard there.

I'm balancing these against the word of a V3 playtester on the Strike-to-Stun forum, who wrote "The game really does support roleplaying. As much as any rpg." From this post:
http://forum.strike-to-stun.net/viewtopic.php?p=41180&highli...

I've looked at the materials and tried to connect the dots, and I've tried to demonstrate that you can use the exact cards that FFG has previewed for us to run a totally traditional RPG.

The RPG-ness of the game is easy to see if you allow for the possibility that the party-tension level is set entirely by the GM. If that weren't the case, I'd have serious doubts about the rest of the system.

There's also the light-handed approach of the rules phrasing on the cards that includes the all-important word "may", instead of "must". Those are rules that suggest what may happen in the story, but they don't dictate it.

So. Big shrug over here until we see more.
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Chris McNeilly
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MartiniPhilosopher wrote:

We players of WFRP are their single, best, #1 salesforce bar none.


Its a bold statement to be sure and may possibly be true. As I've read through the major complaints folks are raising a few things come to mind that I think will turn out to be true. I could be completely wrong as I know squat about marketing...but my wife does!!!! Hahaha, seriously though.

Edition changes always bring about strife. I think in general though what you see, especially in internet forums is the very vocal minority raising their complaints, so it always appears worse than what it is in reality. I think a few old timers may be upset for various reasons, but even amongst the internet community a lot of folks are pretty excited about the new edition.

In general I think even those folks who are severely agitated right now will still buy the product. If they're interested at all. If it comes out and it doesn't interest them they won't buy and wouldn't have even had they been handled with kid gloves by the company. If it does interest them, as hardcore fans, they'll buy it regardless of whether the company kicked them in the gut. So I really don't think its going to effect the sales of the product at all. The product will sell itself.

Beyond that, I'm not even sure that FFG is depending on the existing customer base for sales. I'd wager that they're hoping a lot of the existing customers will support it, a lot probably will. But they're probably also hoping for new blood. A portion of FFG fans will buy in just because they like what FFG does and knows that FFG's style is their style. And they're also probably just hoping to generate new interest with Warhammer through their new RPG interface.

From a pure profits standpoint I can't help but think that FFG will make more money on this one core product release than they ever would have with supplementals for v2. Warhammer is a niche within a niche within a niche. Supplementals just can't make that much profit I'd guess, especially the deeper in the run you go. But a new coreset...that sells to old fans and opens the possibility up for a new customer base.
 
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Sean Todd
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DagobahDave wrote:
greyareabeyond wrote:
But the least "boardgamey" thing FFG can imagine could still be pretty "boardgamey".

They produce some traditional RPGs: Anima, Grimm, Rogue Trader, Midnight (formerly). I'm not sure how many of those were designed in-house, though.


That's true, they have produced some RPG stuff in the past, but they're certainly better known (and achieved most of their success) in the world of boardgames. Massive, multi-hour, component-heavy, theme-rich boardgames.

I'm pretty sure Anima was not produced in-house or even commissioned directly by FFG (it's listed as having been created by Japanese and European designers). And the WH and WH40k stuff they've produced so far was probably mostly in the pipeline when they took over the franchises.

They haven't been terribly successful in their previous RPG attempts and they've certainly never had a top tier showcase franchise like WH or WH40k until now. It makes a lot of sense financially to buy an existing franchise rather than try to develop one from scratch. If they (mostly) stick to what they know it will be a boardgamey rpg with great art, high quality components, and steeped in theme and narrative. It may not be terribly flexible or backwards compatible.
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Bossko B.
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I just watched the GenCon seminar. Credit where credit is due, it looks beautiful and a lot of thought has gone into the game. But IMHO it's Boardgame thinking, not RPG thinking. The cards, the markers and the special dice, it's too boardgamey. Sure, I love boardgames. Descent, Heroquest, etc have RPG roots but are still Boardgames. Maybe FFG think they can be innovators and blur the lines between RPG & Boardgame? While I wish them the best of luck I know how stubborn RPGers can be, and this to me looks a step too far for old school WFRPers.

And I still come back to the fact there are not enough dice to go around a group of six people who won't share dice. At $99.99 it's a very expensive outlay for a large RPG group.
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Old Scratch
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Ugavine wrote:
I just watched the GenCon seminar. Credit where credit is due, it looks beautiful and a lot of thought has gone into the game. But IMHO it's Boardgame thinking, not RPG thinking. The cards, the markers and the special dice, it's too boardgamey.


I think you're using the wrong reference. This thing strikes me as unconventional, but not in the boardgame way, but in the indie forge style rpg.

It really has a vibe of the more alternative rpgs which moved away from traditional mechanics and embraced mechanics that are front and center and guide and inform play. Seeing things like the party tension struck me as game conditions that appear in games like My Life with Master where events are triggered.

I wouldn't be surprised if the designers had some experience with these sort of games.

Now, I am working on partial information, so maybe it is more board gamey than I thought, but I definitely see indie/forge influences rather than boardgame. Anyone else get the same impression?

EDIT: I should make it clear that I could be projecting myself. It's just a hunch that I got from reading the stuff and hearing about the game.
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Dave Graffam
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Old_Scratch wrote:
Anyone else get the same impression?

Big time.
 
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Chris McNeilly
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Old_Scratch wrote:


Now, I am working on partial information, so maybe it is more board gamey than I thought, but I definitely see indie/forge influences rather than boardgame. Anyone else get the same impression?


Same here and I alluded to it in my comment on the FFG site. My impression throughout his explanation of the Party Sheet was definitely one of Indie influence. I also got the same feeling during the Stance discussion.

As I also mentioned over there, I've intentionally stayed out of the debate about how boardgamish v3 may be since there's been so little information. After watching the videos I don't get the boardgame impression at all. The cards and markers are no more boardgamish than a d6. They're purely reference materials, and probably welcome ones at that. So, not so boardgamish but I did feel some Indie slipping in the back door.
 
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Alexander Bateman
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Old_Scratch wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the designers had some experience with these sort of games.
Jay has mentioned a couple of times that he is a 'big fan' of GNS theory.
 
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Stephen Dunne
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2nd Ed was not broken, this is just FFG wanting to make money off of a great system.

Everything I watched from the seminar video seems to be an attempt to dumb things down, and add in element of MMO gaming to try and hook video gamers onto Board/RPG games.

Welcome to the World of Dungeoncraft MMORPG.
 
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Jonas Barkå
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jgerman wrote:
I never said it wasn't still an RPG, why is that so difficult to understand?


Maybe because of this?

jgerman wrote:
It's more of a board game with RP elements mixed in.
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So many posts... yeah, I think the discussion can handle one more...

I like the ideas: the dice, the cards (I was actually thinking about introducing flashcards to my RPG sessions - this really makes things easier, especially when you're playing any kind of magic user with a lot of available spells), the overall rules governing the party social dynamic (correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions, I only went through some of the materials available).

Furthermore, I like the artwork and I do like many games created, re-created or produced by FFG. But this game I will not buy.

Now,this is no "nerdrage", I'm not trying to single-handedly intimidate Fantasy Flight into going back to the 2ed Warhammer. As someone pointed out: nobody's coming home to steal my stuff (unless somebody actually does that, I don't think, however, that he or she will come for my FRP books collection). Nobody is forcing me to buy the new boxed set and there are no laws passed against playing the second edition of WFRP.

So, why am I even wasting time and space?

Well, first of all, to say that I (me, myself, I - not any sort of a group) do not like their new idea. I mean, I believe that the new game engine might be a smishingly good idea, but I also think that Warhammer doesn't need it. I always liked the 1-100 stats, which I believed to be the simplest way of showing how good a character is at something (eg. D&D: "How good am I at lockpcking?"; "Let's see... you have a dexterity score of 16, which gives you a +3 bonus and 5 ranks in "Disable device" skill, which gives an overall rating of 8, plus a d20 against a standard difficulty of 20 gives you about 40% chance of opening it"; WFRP: "How good am I at lockpicking"; "Let's see... Dexterity 40, 40%!"). So, basically, what I'm trying to say is that the idea for the mechanic looks great, but not necessarily on the Warhammer world.

Secondly, I'm also trying to say that FFG have the right to do what they wish with their product. Sure, I'm not a fan of making my all-time favourite RPG a tabletop version of an MMO but I guess I have to accept that role playing games have to use the popularity of computer games to stay alive, not the other way around. I actually believe that paper and pencil games owe a great debt to the electronic industry. World of Warcraft broke the bondaries between "nerds" and "regulars", making people around us get at least a glimpse of what fun it is to be an elf, a wizard or a paladin. What's more, people with a lot of money (and a desire to make even more) became aware that there is a point in investing funds in what we - pen and pencil players - love most. This way, I can enjoy my favourite game in a mostly full-colour, hardback version, with great new ideas and a nicely streamlined mechanic. Finally, a great game put in books that make you want to play it.

The fact that those books are slowly becoming unique items and that I will not be getting any more good stuff from the game designers themselves is just collateral I have to accept. And I will. The first edition of WFRP lived for more than 10 years (I think) as a "dead game" and it did not send it into oblivion (in Poland it actually became legendary and some young roleplayers would embark on quests to find the core rulebook somewhere on store-sale). So, basically, suck it up, people and try not to spill coffee on your handbooks. That's all it takes. If FFG creates new adventures and source-books for WFRP, the only thing we will have to do is replace the mechanic. And the game will live on.
 
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Will
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I'm just responding to some of the 'boardgame' comments.

If I showed up with this game to boardgame night with a bunch of people that don't roleplay and tried to call it a 'boardgame' because it has 'boardgame elements' like cards and boards, I would be laughed at.

Likewise, if I did the same thing and tried to call it a 'hybrid' game because it has boards and cards but just set in a roleplaying game, I'd expect the same thing to happen.

Come on... this is a roleplaying game. Just because pieces of information, management tools, and interaction aids exist on cards and boards instead of solely in a book it does not make it any less of a roleplaying game. You still write down your own statistics and information about your character, you advance him through his career, you choose your own actions, and you tell your own story.
 
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Devon Harmon
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They lost me at the price point. I'll pay $30-40 for a core rule book of a new system to take a look and see if it is something I want to delve deeper into. I enjoy reading RPG rules even if I never ever play them. But there's no way I spending the kind of money they are asking (even considering online discounts) just to check out the game.

Edit: I saw the game in the store and I was really impressed! Forget what I said above. This game seemed worth it once I actually saw it. Now to get everything read and sorted.
 
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Sean Todd
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wlybrand wrote:
I'm just responding to some of the 'boardgame' comments.

If I showed up with this game to boardgame night with a bunch of people that don't roleplay and tried to call it a 'boardgame' because it has 'boardgame elements' like cards and boards, I would be laughed at.

Likewise, if I did the same thing and tried to call it a 'hybrid' game because it has boards and cards but just set in a roleplaying game, I'd expect the same thing to happen.

Come on... this is a roleplaying game. Just because pieces of information, management tools, and interaction aids exist on cards and boards instead of solely in a book it does not make it any less of a roleplaying game. You still write down your own statistics and information about your character, you advance him through his career, you choose your own actions, and you tell your own story.


And if I came to my RPG game night with all this stuff and called it a RPG they would say "If we wanted to play a boardgame/RPG we'd play Descent". There is such a thing as a hybrid. There is a spectrum from Boardgame to RPG. You may have a black and white definition of a RPG, others may as well and they may say "this is clearly a boardgame".
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Will
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Fair enough. I guess my definition of 'hybrid' would be when there are miniatures representing the players. In my mind that's when the freedom of traditional roleplaying must really succumb to the constraints of a traditional boardgame. So yes, I'd put Descent and WHQ in that sort of grey area, a hybrid RPG/boardgame. But for me personally, WFRP 3rd still smells like a roleplaying game, just with more player aids than is traditional.
 
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stephen
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I cant understand who this is version of the game is aimed at. Existing whfrp players will almost certainly stick with whatever version they know and love, not needing a complete re-working of a system that was already functional and familiar.

People new to roleplaying are unlikely to buy it unless quite well heeled. I certainly would never have dipped my toe in the roleplaying waters by buying a game which is sold at such a premium price. I would start with something cheaper, heck I could buy star wars d6, call of cthulhu, mouseguard and traveller for the price of WHFRP 3rd edition.
Here in the UK prices are unlikely to come down on the game, so its always going to be a premium product and to get the materials for a usual sized group its going to run to over £100, thats a lot more cash than needed for any other game I have ever run.

I virtually started roleplaying with WHFRP 1st edition, I never needed an easier set of rules to get up and running, the original book did just fine. The system needed tidying up and bringing up to date, not completely ditching.

I like FFG stuff, its well produced and has neat toys, but their lines have become increasingly expensive and for my pocket increasingly irrelevant, there are limits to what I can afford to spend and this game amongst a few others crosses that line.

I dont mind the games hybrid nature, I do see it as more of an extension or progression of FFGs boardgames line than an evolution of rpgs in general. In many ways its a natural progression and probably inevitable looking at their line of games, particularly Descent. The system seems to have some very boardgamey features, like fatigue markers etc as balancing tools, something I would have expected to have been streamlined out of a true rpg. Its almost like the designers couldnt quite get out of the boardgame design mindset, or maybe had too little confidence to really push that little more to bring out the roleplaying side of the game and so leave us with the boardgamey anachronisms.

I will be interested to see how successful it is, I would like to see it succeed because its obvious a lot of work has been done to make it and it has some unique and interesting features. It goes further to try the mass market big budget production values than any game I have seen recently, but it may not be quite right for the market, time will tell.

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Will
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Quote:
There are miniatures representing the players.

Really? Where does it state this? I'm genuinely interested. I must've missed that.

I am glad to hear that... frankly I like that level of representation.
 
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wlybrand wrote:
Quote:
There are miniatures representing the players.

Really? Where does it state this? I'm genuinely interested. I must've missed that.

I am glad to hear that... frankly I like that level of representation.
There are cardboard cut-outs that represent what range bands everyone is at, but not (AFAIK) any form of grid based representative movement rules.
 
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Totally disagree with the OP - I'm very much intrigued and interested in this new system. Looks pretty flippin' sweet.
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You know change can be frightening the same thing was true with their living card game model, ditch the safety of a CCG and use some "clever marketing gimmick" to sucker everyone into buying new cards. In this case it worked out Well the LCG model, satisfies non CCG fans (like my self) as I know I can get the cards with the purchase of the expansions, rather than hoping I get a lucky break and happen to get that ultra rare in one of the 50+ boosters I would have to buy to keep up, in short it was a Win/Win there, In this case giving roleplayers props, and quick reference so they can focus on roleplaying rather than arguing the minutiae of the rules seems like a no brainer, more so that 4e, I have not read anything on the FFG website to imply that they are pushing miniatures (and heck if they did wouldn't that be a huge infraction on their agreement with GW?), Nor do I see that this game is going to be any more "MMORPish or Boardgameish, than Savage Worlds,TORG, or Castle Falkenstien, all of which used props or cards and all of which are most decidedly Roleplaying. Am I suggesting this game is perfect, or even good, No but that's because I have yet to play it. I am holding out to see what FFG does, but to be fair, I have seen them do some pretty cool stuff and I am optomistic that this game will be worth the price of admission, and if the Demo next month proves that, then Maybe I'll have to consider running this instead of Rogue Trader.
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(Edited highlights )
chaosjenkins wrote:
I'm a huge WFRP fan. It's probably my second favorite RPG after Call of Cthulhu. I really felt like (engine-wise) Green Ronin did a masterful job of bringing everything that was good about first edition into second edition and weeding out pretty much all that was broken about the game. I haven't really had any complaints about the second edtion.

That said, count me among those very intrigued and excited by this announcement. I love games. All games.
[-SNIKT!-]

And after watching the videos from GenCon and reading the material on FFG's site, I believe this is a true RPG -- just with a 21st century interface and components.
[-SNIKT!-]

People who talk about this breaking the mood of the Old World sure are being selective in what they interpret as canon. Yes the Old World has an amazing sense of this war-torn land with dark and cosmic horror seeping through the cracks. But it's also the world of Blood Bowl. It's also the world of William King's over-the-top cheesy Gotrek and Felix adventures. It's also the world of Goblin Fanatics and Shamans who blow their heads off with miscasts.
[-SNIKT!-]

At the very least, I'm going to wait until I see it and play WFRP 3E before I pass final judgment.

It might just be that the guys at FFG know what they're doing.

Hear, hear Josh! thumbsup The Chicken Lickens across these here intarwebs notwithstanding, next month the sky will fall on neither the Warhammer Old World nor WFRP3, don't you think?.

I won't repeat what I blogged @RD/KA! when I heard the news myself, but I am very interested in getting to grips with the new GM's and other tools FFG's WFRP3 promises. I can already imagine how some of them might help me improve on my Ashes of Middenheim campaign.
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